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Post by oldsproject on Oct 5, 2009 18:24:53 GMT -5
I've studied BR[]'s page thoroughly on 100 point restoration etc. But what are the key items that run of the mill judges actually look for?
Example, my next project car (442 Holiday Coupe) has the correct frame, lower control arms, etc. Pretty clean and original except for the motor. I bought a second donor car that has the correct distributor, carb, heads, exhaust manifolds and intake manifold but has the questionable 1965 425 B block. So plan to swap this motor in. Power steering and air all look original (need to check further).
Interior will be completely redone but the car is solid with little rust, a good center console and I have several tachs and a good T shifter. I've got plenty of chrome parts etc to get it looking pretty sharp when it's all done. Car was originally Red interior and white exterior (white headliner).
What are they really going to look for (typically) and how much does the 425 B block help or hurt? Any suggestions as I'm in the planning stage right now? Also, what weight/detractions do they put on internal motor components like roller rockers versus standard, ported heads, timing chain, cam, etc?
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Post by bubbasz1 on Oct 5, 2009 18:46:09 GMT -5
They are not going to take your engine apart, and if they would I'd walk away, so if you don't put an outrageous cam in it I would think you'd be good. If you listen to Ramz's car you would sort of think it's not stock but I don't ever think it's been questioned. My poor old car sounds like an old Lady's car compared to his.
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Post by RAM Z on Oct 5, 2009 19:30:01 GMT -5
Run of the mill judges dont know squat about these cars. Most have never seen a 65 442. What I can tell you is the experiences that I had at the last two OCA Nationals. 08 was my first time at a national event. OCA has a set of guidelines and rules, but the cars are judged by volunteers and the scoring is all over the place. What they do check for are conditions of parts. How nice the paint is, the glass (is it foggy or scratched), chrome, interior, engine/trunk compartment. Wheels are tires are also checked. In Dearborn the judges started with the cars closed, hood/trunk/windows, to check for fit and finish. Doors were opened and shut to see how nice they worked. In Pittsburgh the cars were open and only the hood operation was checked. At both events I was knocked for wrong trunk latch finish, last year it was the lower and this year it was the upper. And both were correct when they said they werent. The judges dont know correct numbers and codes of every part. Obvious codes like heads and block should be checked. One thing I did get banged for was a new windshield, which has the Pilkington name on it and not LOF. But other than that not much else was looked at. So from my experience the last two years the judges looked for condition and not correctness. Here is a good discussion about judging etc. classicoldsmobile.com/forums/general-discussion/14696-w36-stripes-seven-springs.html
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Post by BR[] on Oct 5, 2009 19:32:01 GMT -5
wtf's a 425 B block? The only B should be a 400........so whats the casting number?
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Post by BR[] on Oct 5, 2009 19:46:36 GMT -5
FYI: I was contacted by the OCA and the 65 442 advisor and was asked to make a list of items that should be checked for correctness on the 65's. I would gather from this that there must have been a lot of complaints and that they are compiling a set of guide lines to be used at all future meets. Which is a good thing.......at least you'll know what they are looking for. Pre printing list .......... $750.00________RamZ $950.00__________Bubba $0.00 cause he don't give a shit! Soooooooooooooo I picked out everything I could think of that RamZ has wrong and brought it to their attention. Needless to say the list seemed to go on forever.
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Post by bubbasz1 on Oct 5, 2009 20:05:42 GMT -5
I just don't give a shit!! How true, when can I have my list so I can put with all the other shit I don't look at.
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Post by BR[] on Oct 5, 2009 20:39:03 GMT -5
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Post by oldsproject on Oct 5, 2009 21:19:03 GMT -5
wtf's a 425 B block? The only B should be a 400........so whats the casting number? My mistake, meant 425 A block which is a 65. Bro is right like always. ;D Must be the vicadine I'm on..... just had a double hernia surgery
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Post by Big Mike on Oct 5, 2009 21:29:27 GMT -5
FYI: I was contacted by the OCA and the 65 442 advisor and was asked to make a list of items that should be checked for correctness on the 65's. I would gather from this that there must have been a lot of complaints and that they are compiling a set of guide lines to be used at all future meets. Which is a good thing.......at least you'll know what they are looking for. If it was this year's Nats, oh yeah, there was a boatload of complaints. From all the reports from the guys in our chapter, it was a real mess. First of all the OCA has a completely different set of rules for judging. It is similar to other single make judging rules, but the OCA is different. The story Jasen told about the proper color of his trunk latch is a prime example. OCA will go nuts and deduct the hell out of a car for an improper color of part and most of the time (like 99%) the OCA judges has it wrong, it’s a real problem with the OCA. One of our guys that won best of class for his car was told by the judge that his wheel color was wrong. NO, the judge was wrong. The owner had to appeal the ruling and brought out his dealer brochure that showed his wheel color as a choice for his year car and he was backed up by the model year advisor. Most judges are volunteer judges, the problem comes up when the head judge doesn't set the bar correctly and educates his volunteers. Jasen is correct, mostly judges are looking for proper condition as opposed to correctness for the car, but correctness will come into play at some time and at some meets, it really depends on the head judge and sanctioning body.
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Post by oldsproject on Oct 6, 2009 10:19:36 GMT -5
Being new to the sport, this is disappointing but understandable. As they say on the farm, just put some make up on that pig and make er perty Serious note, how will they react to the 425 block even though it's period correct? And...... bigger question what color? I may be over thinking this stuff but if the myth is true, and GM did insert some 425 blocks whether special ordered or low inventory issue (more likely in my opinion) wouldn't they have painted them the same color as a 442? Interesting, I went through the Mondello Tech manual and basically everything on the 425 is the same as the 400 with exception of the bore (obvious) and push rod length (400 = 9.644 425 = 9.622).
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Post by bubbasz1 on Oct 6, 2009 10:33:17 GMT -5
The 425's that were inserted in the 442 were their proper red color, without the chrome air cleaner, I do believe.
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Post by oldsproject on Oct 6, 2009 11:27:05 GMT -5
One thing I did get banged for was a new windshield, which has the Pilkington name on it and not LOF. But other than that not much else was looked at. All of my glass says Soft Ray? Is that incorrect?
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Post by RAM Z on Oct 6, 2009 13:51:07 GMT -5
One thing I did get banged for was a new windshield, which has the Pilkington name on it and not LOF. But other than that not much else was looked at. All of my glass says Soft Ray? Is that incorrect? Nope, its correct.
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Post by BR[] on Oct 6, 2009 16:57:26 GMT -5
The 425's that were inserted in the 442 were their proper red color, without the chrome air cleaner, I do believe. Factory Installed 425's in 65 442's U R B A N___L E D G E N DDon't you think someone would have been able to document at least 1 in the last 44 years? Huh dontcha huh? Hasn't happend! They were blown engine dealer installed replacements.
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Post by bubbasz1 on Oct 6, 2009 17:08:20 GMT -5
I believe there are people who have had them since new, I think one is the owner of Rocket Racing in Wisconsin but if you want I can find that out for sure.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2009 17:53:52 GMT -5
FYI: I was contacted by the OCA and the 65 442 advisor and was asked to make a list of items that should be checked for correctness on the 65's. I would gather from this that there must have been a lot of complaints and that they are compiling a set of guide lines to be used at all future meets. Which is a good thing.......at least you'll know what they are looking for. Pre printing list .......... $750.00________RamZ $950.00__________Bubba $0.00 cause he don't give a shit! Soooooooooooooo I picked out everything I could think of that RamZ has wrong and brought it to their attention. Needless to say the list seemed to go on forever. That was harsh, but funny!! ;D
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Post by BR[] on Oct 6, 2009 19:03:01 GMT -5
I Would love, and have to see, at least a scan of, the build sheet, window sticker or dealer order sheet. Somthing, anything that has the 425 listed in the original purchase information. BUT, I want first dibs for my web site, before RamZ tries to hi-jack it. Don't let him see this post.
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Post by RAM Z on Oct 6, 2009 19:39:40 GMT -5
I Would love, and have to see, at least a scan of, the build sheet, window sticker or dealer order sheet. Somthing, anything that has the 425 listed in the original purchase information. BUT, I want first dibs for my web site, before RamZ tries to hi-jack it. Don't let him see this post. Who cares what these cars had originally? Put a 350 Chevy in it and DRIVE IT!!!!!
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Post by BR[] on Oct 6, 2009 20:49:36 GMT -5
I Would love, and have to see, at least a scan of, the build sheet, window sticker or dealer order sheet. Somthing, anything that has the 425 listed in the original purchase information. BUT, I want first dibs for my web site, before RamZ tries to hi-jack it. Don't let him see this post. Who cares what these cars had originally? Put a 350 Chevy in it and DRIVE IT!!!!! Simply to document it.........either way............ I am a seeker of the truth, justice and the American way.
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Post by bubbasz1 on Oct 6, 2009 20:51:29 GMT -5
I have to grant you that stub, you like your documentation, you work for the IRS in a previous life or what.
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