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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 18:46:15 GMT -5
I have a funny feeling I'm going to start a fire storm but here goes....
I recently picked up a 1965 Cutlass that I purchased from the second owner. He said the original owner claimed he ordered it new with the 400. I was skeptical but bought it anyway. Its a manual 3 speed stick, console car. The "original" motor car came with the car, it had chucked a rod(block salvageable, crank not so much). It now has a piece of chev 194 six. I was told that was done so the car stayed mobile.
Anyway..the 400 is a 65 with the V code, the date on the block is December 19 (1964 I assume) March build on the data plate. That to me puts the time frame right on the engine.
No protecto plate to be found and I haven't found a build sheet.
Here is the deal, I just crawled under it and it DOES have the 442 frame. 5 bolt holes on the upper rear control arms location, the curl on the rear cross member and the frame is not the welded type(in front of the rear wheel).
Is there a documented case of a NON 442 having a 400?
Has anyone seen a case where a cutlass got the 442 frame?( and no its not a convertible frame)
Let the games begin.............
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Post by oldolds88 on Aug 19, 2016 20:40:42 GMT -5
from what ive found all stick shift frames were "442" frames. i have a 65 post that came with3 spd on the tree,frame has all the extras. this one also got the rear sway bar on it.
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Post by joepadavano on Aug 19, 2016 22:49:20 GMT -5
The 1965 SPECS booklet shows the 400 motor only available "...with the 4-4-2 Performance Package", but see below for the loophole.  Having said that, I DO know that in later years, it WAS possible to order such "unavailable" combinations in police car packages. For example, the following pages are from the 1966 and 67 SPECS booklets. Note the L77 400 engine available in the A-body line with the note "*For Police usage only"   |
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Post by Big Mike on Aug 20, 2016 8:54:42 GMT -5
. Having said that, I DO know that in later years, it WAS possible to order such "unavailable" combinations in police car packages. For example, the following pages are from the 1966 and 67 SPECS booklets. Note the L77 400 engine available in the A-body line with the note "*For Police usage only" 1965 was the same, Police Pursuit 400 ci. engines were available in every body style save a very few. Sports Couoe, Holiday Coupe, wagon, flat tops and Vista's, 4-doors of course... |
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Post by familyrides1965 on Aug 20, 2016 10:36:12 GMT -5
I remember the car you bought, just not sure from where? It may have been on e-bay or craigslist. Something jumped out at me when I saw the pictures that just didn't add up? Can't remember what it was now. May have been something with the firewall, dash, core support, or steering column? I've owned a couple of 3 and 4-speed Cutlass' and as mentioned they had the heavy duty frame.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 11:02:28 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the responses.
Familyrides, your right, it had a column shift auto steering column swapped into it. Reason unknown but I do know it is a original manual car.
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Post by familyrides1965 on Aug 20, 2016 11:18:06 GMT -5
That's what it was...
Manual shift car with the added bonus of a 400 engine regardless of originality still a good project.
Also, I can't remember if it had the V-6 core support or V-8?
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Post by joepadavano on Aug 20, 2016 11:19:38 GMT -5
1965 was the same, Police Pursuit 400 ci. engines were available in every body style save a very few. Sports Couoe, Holiday Coupe, wagon, flat tops and Vista's, 4-doors of course... I suspected as much but didn't have the documentation to prove it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 13:28:00 GMT -5
Familyrides.
Its the V8 support. Your right about it being a great platform for a project. I wanted to check it s bona fides because I was going to add a disc brake and tall ball joint kit to it but if its something rare it needed to go back to rock stock. Being that it pedigree is questionable I think its going to get the upgrades.
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Post by RAM Z on Aug 20, 2016 13:34:58 GMT -5
 Only available on F85 V8 sedans and coupes. |
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Post by joepadavano on Aug 20, 2016 18:00:59 GMT -5
Only available on F85 V8 sedans and coupes. Thanks for posting that. |
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Post by hairyolds on Aug 20, 2016 22:43:49 GMT -5
Where did you find that info RAM Z?
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Post by joepadavano on Aug 21, 2016 8:59:40 GMT -5
Interesting that for 1965, RPO L77 designated the 370HP 425 in the B-body cars and also the 345HP 400 in the A-body cars.
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Post by Big Mike on Aug 21, 2016 9:34:14 GMT -5
And as we all know by now, just because a certain published limitations, doesn't mean there weren't ways to get what you want.
I was a feet manager for a municipal fleet in a Dallas suburb and police and fire fleets could get things for their fleet cars no one else could get. Dealers that were awarded the bid for 50-100+ units would bend over backwards for special requests. Now granted the special request would technically won't be "factory", but explain that to someone who purchased an old patrol unit at auction.
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Post by joepadavano on Aug 22, 2016 9:30:41 GMT -5
And as we all know by now, just because a certain published limitations, doesn't mean there weren't ways to get what you want. I was a feet manager for a municipal fleet in a Dallas suburb and police and fire fleets could get things for their fleet cars no one else could get. Dealers that were awarded the bid for 50-100+ units would bend over backwards for special requests. Now granted the special request would technically won't be "factory", but explain that to someone who purchased an old patrol unit at auction. Dealer installed parts aren't factory and have zero bearing on any discussion of factory-available options. The dealership would have installed a Chevy motor if the customer paid enough. That doesn't mean it was "possible" to get a car that way. How is a dealership parts swap any different from one I do in my own garage? By this logic, you could apparently get a 1968 Vista Cruiser with a 67 425 motor in it, because I owned one. (I also installed it) |
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Post by Big Mike on Aug 25, 2016 7:02:38 GMT -5
By this logic, you could apparently get a 1968 Vista Cruiser with a 67 425 motor in it, because I owned one. (I also installed it) Now Joe, you know that's not what I meant. Just because there was a published limitation by corporate doesn't mean a dealer couldn't get around the limitation. I can tell you from direct experience that dealers competing for 100+ vehicle fleet orders would do just about anything a customer wanted. And this was in the mid-90's, I know in the mid-60's you could get even move done. |
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Post by joepadavano on Aug 28, 2016 10:32:44 GMT -5
By this logic, you could apparently get a 1968 Vista Cruiser with a 67 425 motor in it, because I owned one. (I also installed it) Now Joe, you know that's not what I meant. Just because there was a published limitation by corporate doesn't mean a dealer couldn't get around the limitation. I can tell you from direct experience that dealers competing for 100+ vehicle fleet orders would do just about anything a customer wanted. And this was in the mid-90's, I know in the mid-60's you could get even move done. I'll say it again, Mike. If you are talking about a dealer installed item, that is immaterial. The fact that a dealership installed a 400 motor in a Cutlass is meaningless and is no different than if you did it in your garage. If, however, you are talking about a dealer who got the factory to do something, (like Yenko), with full factory warranty, that's different. As with any of these claims, without documentation it's just a story. |
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