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Post by real57vetteguy on Dec 9, 2012 20:32:45 GMT -5
a lot of you guys followed my build or seen it, the car has ran good, bad, good , bad dyno'd good numbers, fell on its face urg urg. I am about to pull the 455 and do something different, This engine cannot be timed correctly. Ok from 12-18 degrees it will kick back and bust a starter, it will crank easily at 20 degrees, but runs like hell, with it running you can turn the timing back to 16 and its a rocket ship, it will blow the tires off from a 25 mph roll until about 60 mph, turn it off, try to crank it and it will bust a robmcc starter, I thought it might be in the dizzy coil so i put new plugs, wires, new pertronix dizzy and coil, nothing different, runs like crap if you time it to where it will start 20-24 degrees, crank it at 20-24 and turn timing back 16 degrees or so and it runs great, cam is from cutlass efi, degreed at 4 degrees advance, edel heads with a lot of port work?  ?? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2012 22:00:48 GMT -5
Mark that is a very nice 455 you have, Have a pro shop figure it out. However if you go to the "LS dark side" HMM that 455 would be sweet in the 64...
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Post by mongoose on Dec 10, 2012 6:40:57 GMT -5
That new Pertronix is set to provide how much centrifugal advance? 16*? 20*? So far I've found the sweet-spot for my 455 to be in that 36-38* total advance range, and it needs at least 20* of initial advance or will idle like crap. So I set up my distributor to provide 16* of centrifugal, so I can set it to the total advance that makes the best power, while keeping my initial at or slightly above 20*. But cam and head work can make the engine need a different set up.
Maybe your cam/head combo doesn't like as much total advance to make the most power?
I'm scratching my head about the hard start (killing starters) issue in that 12-18* range. Even more so that it starts easier at 20*. I have a Summit mini-starter in mine, and it spun easy at anything less than 18*. Above that, after warming up, I would get the dreaded "WahWah..... Wah.....Wah..... Wah.... oh please start you bitch.... Wah.... Varoom! Yes! But I was nursing an older 650 CCA battery, and I finally picked up a yellow-top Optima with 750 CCA and now it powers right through it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 7:13:27 GMT -5
This sounds like a back to basics check.
Are you sure the timing mark on the damper is correct. I would verify the ring is in correct position. Then verify mechanical advance with good timing light.
Beyond initial setting issues, these motors work well. Initial timing of 10-14 is good with total advance of 34-38.
I do feel your pain, when frustration sets in.
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Post by real57vetteguy on Dec 10, 2012 9:19:27 GMT -5
Well, after trying for weeks to get it timed correctly here is what has been done,
1) we pulled the distributor, and #1 plug, pulled #1 to top dead center, and checked the timing indicator, it was within 1mm of 0. based upon that the mark has to be very close
2) we static timed the engine to 16 degrees. tried to crank it and boom there goes the starter
3) repaired starter moved timing to 18 degrees, engine kicked back on the starter
4) moved timing to 20 degrees, it fires right up and idles really good, drive it and it has good power to 3000 rpm then falls on its face
5) installed advance stops to limit the amount of advance to 16 degrees in theory 20 base + 16 advance =36 total still no change in power
6) back timing off to 16 degrees with engine running, drive it runs great but will not start back
7) set timing back to 20 starts up great idles great, I gave up and let it sit for two weeks, went down to crank it this weekend its misfiring, sputtering terrible
check all plugs, wires, connections, grounds etc no change
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 9:33:31 GMT -5
i agree with Alan, initial 10-14, run all my stuff at 34-38 degree total advance,i have ran stock to 600 lift cam in that area of degree, i had a bad dist one time gave me fits timing jumping all over the place, is your timing staying the same after you set it run it a few times and check it again? i have never broke a starter before ,sounds like something is way out ,if your timimg is staying locked in ,take kook at your fuel make sure pressure maintains, my buddys 455 race motor we was having some of your same problems, checked into all electical,timing ,dist , it ended up being his fuel regulator,weak spring erratic fuel but not all the time it drove us to drink, also no your pain but stick with it you will figure it out, most of the time its something stupid
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 11:57:08 GMT -5
I know nothing about your engine. But seems to me there`s been no mention of the cam installation. Did you check the grind? I`d check every lobe. re-check index. Is the cam even suitable for your application? If your not confident indexing a cam, or verifying the grind, find someone who REALLY is. Sounds more valve timing than ignition timing. But with all the variables, who knows what you have. Maybe you`ve got one of those big number cams, you know, push to start, full rpm ! Scarey part of the problem is, all that power to break off your starter is being transferred thru the pistons and rods.
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Post by real57vetteguy on Dec 10, 2012 12:50:18 GMT -5
I know nothing about your engine. But seems to me there`s been no mention of the cam installation. Did you check the grind? I`d check every lobe. re-check index. Is the cam even suitable for your application? If your not confident indexing a cam, or verifying the grind, find someone who REALLY is. Sounds more valve timing than ignition timing. But with all the variables, who knows what you have. Maybe you`ve got one of those big number cams, you know, push to start, full rpm ! Scarey part of the problem is, all that power to break off your starter is being transferred thru the pistons and rods. The cam was ordered through Mark Remmell (Cutlassefi). The cam index and installation was done by a local friend of mine who has been building race engines for 25+ years, I also questioned the cam and install, I spoke with him last night, and he said he checked the lobes and the cam was installed per Mark Remmells instructions at 4 degrees advance. The timing remains at the same place it isn't jumping around. I first thought it might be a cam issue also in index issue but it doesnt make sense that the engine cranks at 20 but will not at 16? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 13:27:12 GMT -5
I know nothing about your engine. But seems to me there`s been no mention of the cam installation. Did you check the grind? I`d check every lobe. re-check index. Is the cam even suitable for your application? If your not confident indexing a cam, or verifying the grind, find someone who REALLY is. Sounds more valve timing than ignition timing. But with all the variables, who knows what you have. Maybe you`ve got one of those big number cams, you know, push to start, full rpm ! Scarey part of the problem is, all that power to break off your starter is being transferred thru the pistons and rods. The cam was ordered through Mark Remmell (Cutlassefi). The cam index and installation was done by a local friend of mine who has been building race engines for 25+ years, I also questioned the cam and install, I spoke with him last night, and he said he checked the lobes and the cam was installed per Mark Remmells instructions at 4 degrees advance. The timing remains at the same place it isn't jumping around. I first thought it might be a cam issue also in index issue but it doesnt make sense that the engine cranks at 20 but will not at 16? Matters little where the cam came from, or who installed it. Unless it was God. But since your satisfied, that`s cool, should be good to go. That`s all I got, I`m out. |
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Post by real57vetteguy on Dec 10, 2012 13:57:36 GMT -5
The cam was ordered through Mark Remmell (Cutlassefi). The cam index and installation was done by a local friend of mine who has been building race engines for 25+ years, I also questioned the cam and install, I spoke with him last night, and he said he checked the lobes and the cam was installed per Mark Remmells instructions at 4 degrees advance. The timing remains at the same place it isn't jumping around. I first thought it might be a cam issue also in index issue but it doesnt make sense that the engine cranks at 20 but will not at 16? Matters little where the cam came from, or who installed it. Unless it was God. But since your satisfied, that`s cool, should be good to go. That`s all I got, I`m out. I'm not ruling anything out, at this point it might be best to pull the engine out and start from the cam up again. |
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Post by stan65cutlass on Dec 10, 2012 13:59:05 GMT -5
i might be inclined to pull the distributor and swap with a stock unit that ran, hei/points
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Post by stan65cutlass on Dec 10, 2012 14:01:23 GMT -5
also theres that counterclockwise thing to consider, cam set at 4 degrees advance? my 4 cents
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 15:45:10 GMT -5
What is the compression PSI for the motor? Uniform for all cylinders? I would expect 180-200 PSI.
These motors should start at static timing of 6-12 degrees, without kick back. The requirement is to get to full advance by around 2000-2500 RPM of 34-38 BTDC.
Are you saying the engine will not start with timing of say 6-12 deg BTDC at the cranking speed of the starter? The engine should start at 6+ degrees BTDC.
The 4 deg advance of the cam does not change the relation ship of the ignition spark BTDC to the piston position.
Are you using any vacuum advance? Should be plugged for the timing set.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 16:07:46 GMT -5
I know nothing about your engine. But seems to me there`s been no mention of the cam installation. Did you check the grind? I`d check every lobe. re-check index. Is the cam even suitable for your application? If your not confident indexing a cam, or verifying the grind, find someone who REALLY is. Sounds more valve timing than ignition timing. But with all the variables, who knows what you have. Maybe you`ve got one of those big number cams, you know, push to start, full rpm ! Scarey part of the problem is, all that power to break off your starter is being transferred thru the pistons and rods. The cam was ordered through Mark Remmell (Cutlassefi). The cam index and installation was done by a local friend of mine who has been building race engines for 25+ years, I also questioned the cam and install, I spoke with him last night, and he said he checked the lobes and the cam was installed per Mark Remmells instructions at 4 degrees advance. The timing remains at the same place it isn't jumping around. I first thought it might be a cam issue also in index issue but it doesnt make sense that the engine cranks at 20 but will not at 16? Before the door hits me in the ass on my way out of this thread, let me say. I, in no way, meant to bad mouth either the guy you bought your cam from, or your 25 + year veteran friend, that did the install. Have no clue who Mark Remmells is, fact is, in your original post you mentioned cutlass efi? I thought you meant "from" a cutlass with electronic fuel injection. Thought that was strange, but oh well. Just wanted to set this straight before anyone gets there ass all puckered up. Fact is, the cam may have been all well and good, but in the wink of an eye you can end up with a "broom stick" for all sorts of reasons. Just for grins and giggles. Did your problems occur over time, or right from the get-go? Was the engine fine after initial fire, then go bad all of a sudden, or went down hill slowly?  sound of door closing |
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Post by Big Mike on Dec 10, 2012 17:31:52 GMT -5
also theres that counterclockwise thing to consider, cam set at 4 degrees advance? my 4 cents The timing remains at the same place it isn't jumping around. I first thought it might be a cam issue also in index issue but it doesnt make sense that the engine cranks at 20 but will not at 16? Could be because as Stan mentioned, maybe the cam was degreed considering the firing order goes clockwise. So being a counter-clockwise engine instead of 4 degrees advanced it's 4 degrees retarded and a good reason why when you advance the timing 4 degrees it starts. |
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Post by oldsproject on Dec 10, 2012 23:46:47 GMT -5
My experiance, hard start too much retard and not enough advance. Lots of items at play though. If your confident in your distributor its likely the cam. Either bad cam (happens with the best) or degreed incorrectly which is the most likely as cutlass efi knows his crap. Had a company do some of my work with 75 years or so of experiance but very few olds cars. Bottom line, olds are different and they learned with me. Whats your vacuum numbers and is it holding steady? Did you shim the cam? What timing set and what mark was it set?
If the cam and timing set is nut on, its likely the distributor. As posted earlier i locked out my vacuum and defaulted to the lightest springs on the msd " ready to run" unit i have. Total timing is huge with vacuum locked but had it out this weekend, aside from a hesitation in the fuel delivery yet, couldnt keep it straight when i hit the gas. Even at a rolling 15 mph or so the posi broke free and the power was incredible. Roads were a bit moist, so that helped. Starter drag is usually a bad starter, hot starter or engine thats too far in retard in my humble and uneducated opinion.
PS, be sure your dampner is also correct. Since mines a 425 cant comment on the 455 but what I can tell you is That actual TDC on my engine does not match the performance dampner I bought. Had to remark it.
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Post by mongoose on Dec 11, 2012 6:37:45 GMT -5
also theres that counterclockwise thing to consider, cam set at 4 degrees advance? my 4 cents Could be because as Stan mentioned, maybe the cam was degreed considering the firing order goes clockwise. So being a counter-clockwise engine instead of 4 degrees advanced it's 4 degrees retarded and a good reason why when you advance the timing 4 degrees it starts. I'm a bit confused... and it's not the first time nor the last. The crankshaft/balancer spins in a clockwise direction (when viewed from the front). So when you say the Olds is a "counter-clockwise" engine, are you referring to the direction the distributor spins? And if so, how does that affect how you degree a cam? |
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Post by jcf85post on Dec 11, 2012 7:51:59 GMT -5
i had a 68 442 come to me about a year ago with similar symptoms after a couple people gave up on it,the cam was wiped out and it was a freash rebuild. a friend of mine with a bb chevy wiped out 3 cams breaking his motor in until the cam co. reminded him he needed to use oil with zinc and the cam lube.i guess it doesnt take much time to wipe them out. just a thought.jc
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Post by stan65cutlass on Dec 11, 2012 9:40:43 GMT -5
your right mongoose the engine does turn the clockwise, just the distributor is counter clockwise, just throwing out more to think about when it was assembled? the symptoms described are so unusual it could be a degree issue like "oh yeah, this is an olds they turn backwards to a chevy rite?" could be an incorrect fire order, arching inside distributor at higher rpm, hmmm
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 10:32:27 GMT -5
Do you remember what timing set was used on the engine?
Did it have + and - on the crank gear?
Or did it have a circle, square, and triangle?
Many years ago (before you could google from your phone in the garage lol) I timed a sbc wrong using a cloyes timing set and with the lack of any instructions included saying what shape was what I ended up with the cam being severely retarded. I "think" I remember using the circle to circle (dot) method and it was wrong. I had to go back and read the cam card data (valve starts to open at XXdeg) to find what symbol I needed to properly install the set. With the internet the size that it is now, you will find this is a common problem.
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