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Post by real57vetteguy on Apr 6, 2012 15:13:13 GMT -5
I installed power disc up front and will probably end up running disc in the rear also after the 10 bolt expodes, I am running a 572/240 cam. I was told it will supply ample vac for the brakes, but just in case it doesnt I will do what my buddy did on his 65 vert, he hid a vac canister on his which solved all his issues. Ran the vac to the cannister, then to the booster. I guess, depending on how marginal your vacuum is, the canister may be, at best, a band aid. If you think of the vacuum canister as a water bucket, and your vacuum line as a garden hose. Depending on the size of the canister (bucket), the amount of vacuum available (pressure in garden hose) once the brakes are applied once or twice in succession, how long is it going to take to replenish your vacuum (fill the bucket with a slow running hose) to a level to operate the brakes to FULL potential? With a hydroboost there is no re-fill or wait time, brake application pressure is ALWAYS at full potential. Now I`m guessing if your friends car is operating as designed even after several rapid brake applications, his vacuum was quite high to begin with. The hydroboost is a fail safe way to eliminate LOW vacuum conditions. Never said it was for everybody. It COMPLETLY depends upon how marginal your vacuum is! In a lot of cases unless you are running a very radical camshaft the vacuum on a street car is slightly inadequate, the best way to tell is guage it. The size of the vacuum cannister/reservoir is also a big factor. Obviously if you are making 2-6 inches then you are going to need additional help. 16 inches or more is ideal. but if you have say 12+ inches (12HG) a correctly sized vacuum reservoir should solve the problem, Obviously a hydroboost will solve the problem, but if your only slightly shy of the amount of vacuum needed why spend all that money. A vacuum cannister/reservoir is not a band aid, they have been used for years and years and are available at most parts stores, and manufactured by Crane, Lunati, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 15:57:15 GMT -5
I guess, depending on how marginal your vacuum is, the canister may be, at best, a band aid. If you think of the vacuum canister as a water bucket, and your vacuum line as a garden hose. Depending on the size of the canister (bucket), the amount of vacuum available (pressure in garden hose) once the brakes are applied once or twice in succession, how long is it going to take to replenish your vacuum (fill the bucket with a slow running hose) to a level to operate the brakes to FULL potential? With a hydroboost there is no re-fill or wait time, brake application pressure is ALWAYS at full potential. Now I`m guessing if your friends car is operating as designed even after several rapid brake applications, his vacuum was quite high to begin with. The hydroboost is a fail safe way to eliminate LOW vacuum conditions. Never said it was for everybody. It COMPLETLY depends upon how marginal your vacuum is! In a lot of cases unless you are running a very radical camshaft the vacuum on a street car is slightly inadequate, the best way to tell is guage it. The size of the vacuum cannister/reservoir is also a big factor. Obviously if you are making 2-6 inches then you are going to need additional help. 16 inches or more is ideal. but if you have say 12+ inches (12HG) a correctly sized vacuum reservoir should solve the problem, Obviously a hydroboost will solve the problem, but if your only slightly shy of the amount of vacuum needed why spend all that money. A vacuum cannister/reservoir is not a band aid, they have been used for years and years and are available at most parts stores, and manufactured by Crane, Lunati, etc. Mark, Mark, Mark. Take a deep breath, relax. Did I say anything you didn`t just say? Only difference is you injected a few numbers, an HG. But all in all you didn`t say anything different, just made it seem like you did. Read my post again, sloooowwwly. Then be specific where I`m wrong.
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Post by real57vetteguy on Apr 6, 2012 16:12:06 GMT -5
It COMPLETLY depends upon how marginal your vacuum is! In a lot of cases unless you are running a very radical camshaft the vacuum on a street car is slightly inadequate, the best way to tell is guage it. The size of the vacuum cannister/reservoir is also a big factor. Obviously if you are making 2-6 inches then you are going to need additional help. 16 inches or more is ideal. but if you have say 12+ inches (12HG) a correctly sized vacuum reservoir should solve the problem, Obviously a hydroboost will solve the problem, but if your only slightly shy of the amount of vacuum needed why spend all that money. A vacuum cannister/reservoir is not a band aid, they have been used for years and years and are available at most parts stores, and manufactured by Crane, Lunati, etc. Mark, Mark, Mark. Take a deep breath, relax. Did I say anything you didn`t just say? Only difference is you injected a few numbers, an HG. But all in all you didn`t say anything different, just made it seem like you did. Read my post again, sloooowwwly. Then be specific where I`m wrong. You're not wront at all, I just wanted to add some measurements so that if he wanted he could put a guage on it and have some piece of mind, I agree we are on the same page! ;D
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Post by dolzinnig on Apr 6, 2012 18:41:26 GMT -5
Here's an earlier post, but it didnt go into this much depth. ultra-hi-comp.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=talk&thread=1840&page=1I guess what's being said is, done correctly, a canister and booster setup can perform well... In my experience, it doesn't perform well. Just my experience. DZ302 with a decent cam... driving experience can be described as, well, sketchy. Run high RPMs for a while and it wants to lock the fronts, idle around at low RPMs stop and go and all the sudden you have hardly any brakes or the backs lock. I guess my point is, my setup sucks bad and I cant wait to replace it with something correct. (on this particular car probably back to manual because it's only 2400lbs and manual brakes should be plenty) I think the hydroboost is a good concept though.
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Post by oldsproject on Apr 6, 2012 19:23:33 GMT -5
My ONLY 2 cents, dont skimp when it comes to safety period. With all the money each of us invest the worst thing we can do is to have a car that wont stop. Especially since most of us aint building it to go slow...... I too like the hyraboost concept and appreciate the thought in this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 19:37:17 GMT -5
Here's an earlier post, but it didnt go into this much depth. ultra-hi-comp.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=talk&thread=1840&page=1I guess what's being said is, done correctly, a canister and booster setup can perform well... In my experience, it doesn't perform well. Just my experience. DZ302 with a decent cam... driving experience can be described as, well, sketchy. Run high RPMs for a while and it wants to lock the fronts, idle around at low RPMs stop and go and all the sudden you have hardly any brakes or the backs lock. I guess my point is, my setup sucks bad and I cant wait to replace it with something correct. (on this particular car probably back to manual because it's only 2400lbs and manual brakes should be plenty) I think the hydroboost is a good concept though. Here`s a thought if your interested in going manual, but want to increase both ease of brake apply, and increase line pressure. I`m pretty sure the 65` a body cars all were 1" master cyl. bore. Decrease the diameter of the bore, decrease the application force, increase the line pressure. Simple solution to a problem. ricks65cutlass by using the chrysler mini van master reduced the cylinder bore to either 15/16" or 7/8" depending on the tire size of the van, either way he would see a noticeable difference from a stock A body cylinder.
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Post by real57vetteguy on Apr 6, 2012 21:44:51 GMT -5
Shane, Arent we putting the cart in front of the horse? I had a cam ground by cutlassefi (mark) specifically for my application and my use, which i swear by custom grinds and have had tremendous luck with them. Do you know that your cam will not support the vacuum needed? If you know so, I dont know how far along your build is, but wouldnt it be cheeper and better off in the long run to just have a custom grind done? Box cams will never give you the result as a good custom grinder can and they are not expensive. I heard a quote of over 500.00 for a hydroboost?? wow I would get a good custom cam for my build for 300.00 or less, and if you didnt have enough vacuum you dang sure would be close enough to use a vacuum revervoir to make it right!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 21:56:21 GMT -5
Getting ready to order a manual disc brake conversion kit. looked at few kits Summit, Wilwood, inline tube. All the kits seem to be in the same ballpark as price goes, 11 inch rotors, single piston calipers . What kits have you guys gone with ? and why? "Arent we putting the cart in front of the horse? I had a cam ground by cutlassefi (mark) specifically for my application and my use, which i swear by custom grinds and have had tremendous luck with them. Do you know that your cam will not support the vacuum needed? If you know so, I dont know how far along your build is, but wouldnt it be cheeper and better off in the long run to just have a custom grind done? Box cams will never give you the result as a good custom grinder can and they are not expensive. I heard a quote of over 500.00 for a hydroboost?? wow I would get a good custom cam for my build for 300.00 or less, and if you didnt have enough vacuum you dang sure would be close enough to use a vacuum revervoir to make it right!" I guess this thread has gotten so far off point it`s time, at least for me to say good night ! Till next time
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Post by shane on Apr 6, 2012 22:04:43 GMT -5
Mark , I wasn't planning on running any power assisted brakes,The 65 is a manual brake car. the original question was what kits have you guys used for manual disc brakes? There has been a lot of good info in every ones reply. you guys do have me thinking about some other options now. Cams I agree custom ground is the way to go.
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Post by real57vetteguy on Apr 6, 2012 22:21:44 GMT -5
with that being said, and again I am not up on your build, Man brakes will stop the car fine easing around town and normal driving, you will have to use a little more force, if you plan on running the car hard, road racing, doing some fun driives on the curvy roads etc you will love power brakes. Its all in what you want to do. I dont know your age either or what you plan on doing with the car, I am 37 and have terrible arthritis, I want my car to be a driver to take to events that require a lot of stop and go and I dont want to have to stand on the brakes, but thats my case not yours. I would say if your a young chap in great health, and dont plan on keeping the car forever, then go manual, if you plan on it being a life long car, then remember we all get old!
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Post by bubbasz1 on Apr 7, 2012 6:51:15 GMT -5
Well, I should probably stay out of this but what the hell, My post is a stock manual brake system, don't road race it, will lock all 4 tires if needed, never has had a loss of brakes due to overheating or water(really, we don't drive these in the rain do we). My convertible will be the same, car will have tons more power than my post, but thinking about it, will it be road raced, nope. Am I going to do 0 to 120 MPH stops multiple times over and over, nope. For my uses I see absolutely no reason to do no more than rebuild what I have and drive, which is what I decided to do. Think about what you plan to do and base your decision on that. Other that heat dissipation and loss of brakes in water drum brakes will do the job they were intended to.
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Post by BR[] on Apr 7, 2012 8:14:44 GMT -5
Well, I should probably stay out of this but what the hell, My post is a stock manual brake system, don't road race it, will lock all 4 tires if needed, never has had a loss of brakes due to overheating or water(really, we don't drive these in the rain do we). My convertible will be the same, car will have tons more power than my post, but thinking about it, will it be road raced, nope. Am I going to do 0 to 120 MPH stops multiple times over and over, nope. For my uses I see absolutely no reason to do no more than rebuild what I have and drive, which is what I decided to do. Think about what you plan to do and base your decision on that. Other that heat dissipation and loss of brakes in water drum brakes will do the job they were intended to. DITTO
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 8:37:13 GMT -5
The thread continues!!! and that is a great point. Prior to building the 455 for my 67 it had stock 400E with power drum brakes and had no issues and felt safe stopping the car. I converted to disk only because of how I drive the car with almost 500HP. FYI-I have a few things to do on the 67 and I may sell it this summer, my focus is totally on the 64. If you know anybody looking for a sweet driver quality 67 let me know thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 10:54:09 GMT -5
Just a FYI. Chevy Astro vans use hydraboost and they made them many many years. If you want cheap and available parts... There are hundreds of thousands of those. Also, I had a 1991 Astro and it stopped better than most cars.
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Post by real57vetteguy on Apr 7, 2012 12:00:48 GMT -5
Just a FYI. Chevy Astro vans use hydraboost and they made them many many years. If you want cheap and available parts... There are hundreds of thousands of those. Also, I had a 1991 Astro and it stopped better than most cars. Do you have a picture of your setup?
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Post by shane on Apr 7, 2012 12:27:34 GMT -5
Well, I should probably stay out of this but what the hell, My post is a stock manual brake system, don't road race it, will lock all 4 tires if needed, never has had a loss of brakes due to overheating or water(really, we don't drive these in the rain do we). My convertible will be the same, car will have tons more power than my post, but thinking about it, will it be road raced, nope. Am I going to do 0 to 120 MPH stops multiple times over and over, nope. For my uses I see absolutely no reason to do no more than rebuild what I have and drive, which is what I decided to do. Think about what you plan to do and base your decision on that. Other that heat dissipation and loss of brakes in water drum brakes will do the job they were intended to. Yes on the 1/4 mile racing and yes on the road racing traffic light to traffic light. ;D I will race anything I'm driving just ask the wife. NO trailer queen for me I'm gonna use as this car was intended to be used.
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Post by bubbasz1 on Apr 7, 2012 14:00:03 GMT -5
Well, I should probably stay out of this but what the hell, My post is a stock manual brake system, don't road race it, will lock all 4 tires if needed, never has had a loss of brakes due to overheating or water(really, we don't drive these in the rain do we). My convertible will be the same, car will have tons more power than my post, but thinking about it, will it be road raced, nope. Am I going to do 0 to 120 MPH stops multiple times over and over, nope. For my uses I see absolutely no reason to do no more than rebuild what I have and drive, which is what I decided to do. Think about what you plan to do and base your decision on that. Other that heat dissipation and loss of brakes in water drum brakes will do the job they were intended to. Yes on the 1/4 mile racing and yes on the road racing traffic light to traffic light. ;D I will race anything I'm driving just ask the wife. NO trailer queen for me I'm gonna use as this car was intended to be used. Light racing doesn't count as road racing buddy.
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Post by alldun5 on Apr 7, 2012 15:45:55 GMT -5
Only car I drove with manual discs was a Shelby GT350H Mustang, back in the day, and the sign on the dash wasn't enough - "takes more effort" was an understatement!! Took BOTH FEET to bring it down from over a buck, at O'Hare - Old Manheim Road, before the curve!! Took the curve at about 70!! A car that took a pole into the back seat, that Hertz paid to fix! Right by Higgins?
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Post by shane on Apr 7, 2012 19:57:31 GMT -5
Yes on the 1/4 mile racing and yes on the road racing traffic light to traffic light. ;D I will race anything I'm driving just ask the wife. NO trailer queen for me I'm gonna use as this car was intended to be used. Light racing doesn't count as road racing buddy. If I get caught by the police for drag racing, I will be sure to tell them It doesn't count. if your speaking of road course racing then no.
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Post by 1965f85 on Apr 7, 2012 20:47:43 GMT -5
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