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Headers
Mar 16, 2012 8:37:53 GMT -5
Post by my2_65's on Mar 16, 2012 8:37:53 GMT -5
I have have a another question about headers... I have a 65 cutlass convertible with a 425..its .060 over, elderbrock performance alum heads, custom f/t forged piston 11:1 comp with mahle rings.. Competition valve job.......I need headers!!!!!!!!!.. I was told 1 3/4 would be ok to use. Some people say that i need at least 1 7/8??. any thoughts would be appreciated.. thanks!!
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Headers
Mar 16, 2012 13:32:08 GMT -5
Post by shane on Mar 16, 2012 13:32:08 GMT -5
1 7/8 is your best bet to get the best rwhp.
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Headers
Mar 19, 2012 19:44:43 GMT -5
Post by real57vetteguy on Mar 19, 2012 19:44:43 GMT -5
I just read up on that very thing!, on a 600 hp big block that was supercharged, there was a test conducted on 1-3/4 vs 1-7/8 long tube headers. the 1-7/8 made 2 hp more at over 6800 rpm, there was no difference in tq. I dont see a lot of good fitting 1-7/8 headers for these cars, so once you beat the hell out of a ill fitting 1-7/8 there went your 2 hp
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Headers
Mar 20, 2012 14:59:25 GMT -5
Post by shane on Mar 20, 2012 14:59:25 GMT -5
I just read up on that very thing!, on a 600 hp big block that was supercharged, there was a test conducted on 1-3/4 vs 1-7/8 long tube headers. the 1-7/8 made 2 hp more at over 6800 rpm, there was no difference in tq. I dont see a lot of good fitting 1-7/8 headers for these cars, so once you beat the hell out of a ill fitting 1-7/8 there went your 2 hp Chadman runs 1 7/8 headers on his 65 442 and he didn't have to beat the hell out of them to get them to fit. But then again he didn't go out and buy the cheap universal ones that the manufacture claims fit our cars. As for the H.P. Ive read a few things on the net also. testing between 1 3/4 &1 7/8 every article has different h.p readings any from 22 to only 2 hp improvement. believe what you want. every manufacture is gonna claim they make the best.
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Headers
Mar 20, 2012 16:08:45 GMT -5
Post by real57vetteguy on Mar 20, 2012 16:08:45 GMT -5
I in no way am trying to argue, on a 400-500 naturally aspirated engine I highly doubt you will see more than a few HP, Chadman is running a header that will cost you 1000.00-1300.00 and they are awesome, I paid 470 for a t of new hookers that fit perfect.....what I read was an independent speed shop that done the dyno results on a 600 HP big block, they werent trying to sell anything, I actually had the same type testing done on a small block supercharged car, between a 1-5/8 Shorty and 1-3/4 long tube...... We couldnt get over 3 HP difference.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Headers
Mar 20, 2012 16:39:34 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 16:39:34 GMT -5
Just thinking off the top of my noggin here, and what I know about headers you cold inscribe on the head of a pin.But, headers @ 1200.00 for a 22 H.P. gain seems way out of the ballpark for dollars for H.P., That`s like 54-55bucks per H.P. ? With no gain in torque ? Now I was always under the assumption in a decent build, horsepower should parallel (more or less) torque. A normal build will fall in to the 10.00 per horsepower range, a budget build more like 8.00. Over the 600 H.P. (seems like 600 is a barrier) costs increase more in the 12 to 14 per H.P. But 55 bucks per H.P. for 22 hp gain headers? Seems like a WOW factor ! No torque cost was figured in here since the tests you spoke of showed no significant torque rise, strange in itself don`t ya think ? Maybe too much breathing on the back side? Again, just me thinking, probably way outa touch, I`m old you know
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Headers
Mar 20, 2012 17:28:44 GMT -5
Post by shane on Mar 20, 2012 17:28:44 GMT -5
it is a wow factor. But if he is like me I'm keeping the stock control, not going tubular, clearance issues come up. so do I spend 500 for headers I have to beat to get to fit or do I spend 1000 for some that fit. and get a few extra ponies. For me its not a hard decision. Now with that said we dont know what suspension set he is using. I was thinking about it from my point of view.
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Headers
Mar 20, 2012 20:29:52 GMT -5
Post by real57vetteguy on Mar 20, 2012 20:29:52 GMT -5
it all depends on if you were lowering your car. and if you have a good alighnment guy
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Headers
Mar 20, 2012 22:04:37 GMT -5
Post by real57vetteguy on Mar 20, 2012 22:04:37 GMT -5
it is a wow factor. But if he is like me I'm keeping the stock control, not going tubular, clearance issues come up. so do I spend 500 for headers I have to beat to get to fit or do I spend 1000 for some that fit. and get a few extra ponies. For me its not a hard decision. Now with that said we dont know what suspension set he is using. I was thinking about it from my point of view. if you are keeping stock suspension and shimming the heck out of the uppers the 1000.00 dollar headers dont fit either!
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 6:09:37 GMT -5
Post by chadman on Mar 21, 2012 6:09:37 GMT -5
For me there were alot of factors that played into the purchase of the headers. First and foremost they are stainless and made in the United States. They also are the best fitting and easiest to install headers on the market despite the fact that they have larger primaries than the other headers that fit '65's. They also feature a spike/merge style collector with slip on style ends instead of the plain style three bolt flange collectors. The ground clearance is much better than the other offerings as well. There are no tubes that feature factory indentations like the Hookers do. A coated set of Hooker 3902 headers are $466 through Summit compared to $1075 for the M&J/ARH stainless headers. For a cost difference of $609 you get a much better product. Trust me, I know as I removed a set of Hooker 3902's before replacing them with the M&J/ARH's. As far as control arm clearance goes, I run stock arms shimmed for as much caster as possible and still have plenty of clearance. These headers are available in either 1-7/8"x3" or 2"x3-1/2" configurations. Any other questions just ask.
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 6:56:24 GMT -5
Post by shane on Mar 21, 2012 6:56:24 GMT -5
Chad with the mj headers is there enough clearance for the z bar? With the hookers on my car there were clearance issues.
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 7:25:52 GMT -5
Post by chadman on Mar 21, 2012 7:25:52 GMT -5
Shane, I can't tell you for sure 100% as I have not tried to install one with these headers. All I can say is that Smitty said they will fit with a four speed and I would take him for his word as everything else he claimed about these headers was as he said.
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 8:04:50 GMT -5
Post by shane on Mar 21, 2012 8:04:50 GMT -5
I've read that from a few different guys that these headers do work with 4 speeds. So for me its an easy decision. They fit
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 10:53:19 GMT -5
Post by my2_65's on Mar 21, 2012 10:53:19 GMT -5
so i take it i should go with the 1 7/8.... from AR?
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 11:40:38 GMT -5
Post by real57vetteguy on Mar 21, 2012 11:40:38 GMT -5
so i take it i should go with the 1 7/8.... from AR? What I gather from all this is......... The Smitty headers are a great fit, and will cost you 1000.00-1300.00 a set. If you are running after market upper A arms or your arms arent shimmed inwards towards the motor to far the Hookers should fit excellent and they will cost you 460.00. The Smitty headers are 1-7/8, the Hookers are 1-3/4, I dont think anyone here is debating the fact that on a 400-500 hp engine you will not see much performance difference at all maybe 2 hp maybe 6 hp who really knows but it is very little. I have heard wonderful things about the smitty headers, but I am running a hooker, and I love them, they fit great! If hp is your main goal you can spend that extra 600.00 else where to make much more power than the difference between a 1-7/8 and a 1-3/4 header. If I had an unlimited budget I would have bought the Smitty headers, but I had several uses for that extra 600.00. I think Postcar is running the hookers, as well as the Robski with out any issues either!
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 11:52:34 GMT -5
Post by my2_65's on Mar 21, 2012 11:52:34 GMT -5
Thanks very much for the info!!!!
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 13:30:25 GMT -5
Post by chadman on Mar 21, 2012 13:30:25 GMT -5
so i take it i should go with the 1 7/8.... from AR? This is a decision that only you can make. I say yes, real57vetteguy says no. I don't think anyone is denying that the M&J/ARH headers are better it's just if the benefits are worth $600 to YOU. To me they are. I also feel they are worth more than 2-6hp. Seeing as you are from Cleveland you are more than welcome to stop by the house and see them on the car if you'd like. P.S. They are only available from one place (M&J Proformance in Louisville, OH) and they are $1075. Just to clarify the price as I see they were quoted as $1000-$1300 earlier in this thread.
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 14:15:41 GMT -5
Post by my2_65's on Mar 21, 2012 14:15:41 GMT -5
sent you a pm!!!
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 14:58:46 GMT -5
Post by real57vetteguy on Mar 21, 2012 14:58:46 GMT -5
I have to agree with Chadman, it is totally up to you, I truely am not trying to lean you towards either I dont work for Hooker it benifits me in no way to push you towards the Hooker header, you asked a good question and I am just trying to give you the facts that I know, Below is a quote right off of a header manufacturers website that makes both 1-3/4 and 1-7/8 headers " 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" for a big block engine. Any bigger and you'll lose a considerable amount of low end torque. beyond 3,500 RPM it is a question of where you want the power peaks. As you can see from the charts on this page, small tube headers do not lose their edge in horsepower and torque until you exceed 5,500 RPM. Even if you're running a radical camshaft and blower, you're better off sizing your headers smaller rather than larger, unless you plan to do most of your driving at full throttle. The headers we build are sized correctly for even the most heavily modified street motors." I agree totally with the above, now if you have 700 hp and your motor is turning 7500 rpms you will see 20+ horsepower gains with a 1-7/8, I looked at individual dyno results for th last two hours trying to prove myself wrong, but I cant find it, time after time after time when doing a dyno comparison, be it a ls1, ls3, ford small block, big block, turbo motor, etc etc I keep seeing the same results, the dynos are identical untol over 6000 RPMS or unless it was on a 1000 hp engine. So I agree with Chadman and Shane, you can get 20+ hp more out of a 1-7/8, but to do it you gotta twist that 455 up to about 8k Here is a very good thread to read about the size difference. Notice Ed Curtis and Jay Allen involved, both of whom have written books op building engines! www.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-35272.html
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Headers
Mar 21, 2012 15:34:47 GMT -5
Post by shane on Mar 21, 2012 15:34:47 GMT -5
In this picture is the correct z bar and push rod, and a picture of what was in my car because of the hooker headers. Hmm Go look take a look at Chads and decide for yourself. Wish I would have taken pics of the headers where they had to be flatten to clear the control arms. Glad the hookers worked out for vettguy He saved a few dollars.
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