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Post by john442 on Nov 13, 2018 21:05:27 GMT -5
I'm trying to fix a power steering belt squeal that seems to happen only at higher RPMs. Thinking my bracket was causing the pump to sit slightly crooked I bought another bracket awhile ago but did not install it until recently. I also replace the wobbly pulley (KH) several years ago. The brackets look identical yet one offset is slightly different. I tried spacers with both brackets but cant't seem to get perfect alignment. I get it close but not perfect. I was told that these brackets are for 68-72. My engine is a 70 455. After trying several times I discovered the pump is now leaking from somewhere and the pulley now has a wobble. Now I'm thinking I'll have to keep trying to get the right alignment using washers/spacers and then replace the pulley and the pump because the pumps shaft seems to have a little in and out movement. Anyone know who carries these two groove KH pulleys and where I can get the correct pump? From the pumps I've seen I believe this is a saginaw and it is shaped something like a triangle with the top having a small approx. 2" high round filler neck. Could it be that I am using the wrong pump (and that is why so much difficulty in alignment) or are several different GM pump shapes interchangeable and ok to use?
sorry for the lengthy post but I want to give all info that may help.
John
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Post by stan65cutlass on Nov 14, 2018 13:05:31 GMT -5
try and fix the wobbly pulley by hand, they bend real easy
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Post by john442 on Nov 14, 2018 19:13:03 GMT -5
Thanks Stan I'll give it a try.
John
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Post by joepadavano on Nov 15, 2018 8:05:45 GMT -5
All the Saginaw pump bodies are the same (except for the minor snout diameter difference on newer pumps but that won't affect alignment). The sheet metal reservoirs interchange on the pump bodies. The 1968-up brackets that mount the pump low on the driver's side have caused no end of questions on line, as people neglect to install the spacers needed for them to align properly. Similarly, questions about belt squeal come from not properly tensioning the belt. Spacers must be installed as shown here.  Once the pump is in place, there are THREE fasteners that you need to loosen to adjust the belt, the two bolts on the front and the one nut at the bottom rear of the pump. Once you loosen all three, use a large screwdriver as a pry bar and insert it between the nose of the pump and the tab on the bracket, between the pulley and the bracket. The photo shows the proper position of the screwdriver with the pulley removed for clarity. Use the screwdriver to tension the belt while tightening the two bolts on the front, then get the nut on the back.  |
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Post by john442 on Nov 15, 2018 11:10:54 GMT -5
Joe,
Thanks for your help and the diagram. I'm sure your are right about the spacers and belt squeal. I will make sure to have the right spacers and adjust the belt tension properly.
Thanks again for your help,
John
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Post by john442 on Nov 15, 2018 21:00:27 GMT -5
I'm going to replace the power steering pump and the pulley and make sure I have the right spacers as well. I have a question about which pulleys I can use. my car has two groove pulleys on the alternator and power steering pump and three groove on the water pump and crank. since this car was originally A/C I assume the previous owner reused the pulleys when he put the 455 in. I'm wondering if I have to use a two groove (KH or KA?) pulley or can I use a single groove one. Right now I have the alternator on the pass side with its own belt and the power steering pump on the lower drivers side using a different groove with its own belt. Does anyone know if there would be an alignment problem using a single groove pulley on the pump or if there could be some other problem. The KH pulleys are hard to find and the ones on ebay are either pretty rusty and who knows if they are bent or not. If I have to I can try to unbent my present pulley.
Thanks in advance for your help,
John
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Post by joepadavano on Nov 16, 2018 9:20:36 GMT -5
The pulleys need to match the water pump length. Which pump do you have, 5.1", 5.6", or 6.1"?  |
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Post by john442 on Nov 16, 2018 15:40:38 GMT -5
Joe,
I wish I could say but I rally don't know which water pump I have. Is there some way to identify which one I have? If I took a picture of it would that help identify it?
In the mean time I ordered a new saginaw P type pump from Summit and a used "KH" pulley from ebay. I also ordered the correct spacers from ebay.
Thanks again for your help.
JOhn
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Post by john442 on Nov 16, 2018 16:13:17 GMT -5
I measured the water pump from the block to where the pulley bolts to the pump and it looks like 5 1/8". Does that help identify it? If it does, does that mean the KH pulley I have is the correct one?
John
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Post by joepadavano on Nov 17, 2018 10:15:00 GMT -5
I measured the water pump from the block to where the pulley bolts to the pump and it looks like 5 1/8". Does that help identify it? If it does, does that mean the KH pulley I have is the correct one? John
That is the shortest of the three. You can use the 382417 water pump pulley with the 382169 crank pulley. These would both be original on a 1965-67 car. Alternately, you can use the 399401 pump pulley with the 399402 crank pulley. These are 1968-69 pulleys.
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Post by john442 on Nov 17, 2018 12:05:17 GMT -5
Thanks Joe. I never considered the water pump length but should have. I will check out the part numbers on the pulleys. If I do have the 65-67 pulleys, as I suspect, does that mean I can't use the 68-72 power steering pump brackets and KH pulley?
Thanks for your help again,
JOhn
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Post by john442 on Jan 23, 2019 15:04:15 GMT -5
Its been awhile since I posted here about the problem I'm having aligning the power steering pump. Here is an update. I replaced the pump and KH pulley. I bought the correct spacers and put them in the right places but the pump is still slightly off of alignment and it causes the belt to squeal. It looks to me like I should remove the big spacer on the side of the block and instead use some washers (less of a spacer) to allow the pump (and bottom bracket) to move closer to the block. My estimate is that the small lower bracket should move closer to the block mounting by about 1/2". Has anyone else had problems aligning their pumps?
Sorry if this is confusing. I tried to be brief and specific. To be sure I'm not referring to the large bracket that bolts to the front of the engine. I referring to the bottom small bracket that bolts to the big bracket and the engine. By moving this bracket (with the front bracket loose) toward or away from the block it changes the angle of the pump pulley to the water pump pulley.
John
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Post by joepadavano on Jan 23, 2019 16:34:26 GMT -5
Using thinner spacers than OEM is guaranteed to cause the PS pulley to be canted relative to the crank and water pump pulleys.
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Post by john442 on Jan 23, 2019 19:20:37 GMT -5
Joe the problem is the PS pulley is canted. Looking down from above the pulley appears to be closer to the block
on its left side and I can clearly see it. Looking from the drivers fender it seems slightly out of alignment.
The problem was worse when I first got the car. Since then I tried using the correct spacers and bolts but that
didn’t Solve the problem completely. It made it a little better because the belt squeal only happened at higher
RPMs. Fast forward to now when I decided to fix the problem. I bought another set of brackets in case they were
causing the problem. I thought the newer bracket would solve the problem since it seemed to fit differently. It
was closer and evenly spaced across the front of the pump. The other bracket was cocked across the pump. After
putting things back together I knoticed the pump was leaking and the pulley was wobbling. Frustrated I purchased
a new pump, new spacers and bolts and another KH pulley. I think the second set of brackets are good but can’t
understand why stock bolts and spacers don’t seem to result in perfect alignment.
I don’t want to fix the problem by using washers in place of the spacer. Any ideas?
Thanks
John
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Post by island65cruiser on Jan 24, 2019 9:24:44 GMT -5
Hey John, following your thread. I don't have suggestions about the alignment, but if you can use washers to get the correct spacing, and measure the thickness, you can buy really nice quality spacers in all sorts of sizes from Speedway motors, and they are way cheaper than having them made in a machine shop.
chris
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Post by john442 on Jan 24, 2019 14:06:04 GMT -5
Thanks for that info Chris. I will keep that in mind and may contact them.
I wonder if anyone has had the same problem and had to create a solution.
John
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Post by joepadavano on Jan 25, 2019 9:43:12 GMT -5
Joe the problem is the PS pulley is canted. Looking down from above the pulley appears to be closer to the block on its left side and I can clearly see it.
Then you have a different problem. The pulley is NOT canted from the factory using the factory bracket and spacers. There are millions of Oldsmobiles built with these brackets and spacers and none of them have this problem. Either you don't have it assembled correctly or something is bent. Photos might help understand your problem.
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Post by john442 on Jan 25, 2019 15:56:12 GMT -5
Joe,
I was very careful to follow the schematic you sent me. I'm using the correct spacers in the right places. After rechecking everything I found a bolt I should replace that is too long. It was used to connect the bottom bracket to the block and even though I used washers between the bolt head and the bracket it was still a little too long. Because of that the spacer was not tight between the bracket and the block. I can't be sure that is the problem but that's my next try. If that doesn't work I will remove the water pump and crank pulleys to identify what I have and if there is any problem with them.
Thanks again Joe for your help. I originally thought the first bracket was bent and that was why I bought and installed another.
John
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Post by john442 on Feb 14, 2019 21:33:37 GMT -5
Thanks to all who gave me help on this problem. As stated in earlier post I replaced almost all parts but didn’t
think I had perfect alignment. Turns out it was Not perfect but close and everything works and there is no fan
belt squeal. BUT. Somewhere along the several tries to align the original bracket and later with another bracket,
I stripped a bolt and had to have a helicoil installed.
again, thanks to all who helped me with this problem.
john
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