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Post by mongoose on Jul 31, 2012 5:45:10 GMT -5
Horns aren't working... haven't since the rebuild. So it's about time to do a little troubleshooting.
I'll check the obvious first... fuse, and work my way from there. My original "horn contact plate" was broken, so when I rebuilt the steering column I replaced it with a lightly "experienced" piece, but something could have gone awry there.
I'll check the horn relay too. Any tips on doing that? Don't want to blow up an otherwise good $70-to-replace-relay-from-Fusick just because I did the wrong thing testing it.
Doubt the issue is with the horns themselves, since neither of them is working. But I assume I would just apply 12-volts to the terminals and see if they scare the s#!t out of me?
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Post by Big Mike on Jul 31, 2012 15:08:00 GMT -5
OK, since I'm the first one to respond, Postie will now respond and tell you why you shouldn't do what I tell you! Just kidding, and trying to break up a boring day! Easiest thing to do is to first check the fuse like you said, then get someone to help - put them in drivers seat - and then go to the front of the car. Remove the connector to the first horn. Get a test light and attach alligator clamp from the test light to the neg. side of the battery and then place the test light probe into horn connector. Have helper hit the horn button and see if the test light, lights. If it does, then the circuit is fine and you have a ground or horn issue or both. If the test light doesn't light, then you can start back at the steering wheel provided you have eliminated the fuse and fuse box. Before I give you any more ideas and ways and what to check, you said you replaced the contact plate, does that include the small spring contact and plastic lock ....thingee.... I don't know the name off the top of my head, that goes into the contact plate? Those two small pieces are real trouble spots for our cars.
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Post by shane on Jul 31, 2012 16:45:49 GMT -5
This is all you need problem solved Sorry nothing much else to add at this moment well maybe, you can always get a megaphone .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 17:31:18 GMT -5
No problem with me guys. Electrical is funny stuff. First thing to remember is the relay is always powered 12v. What activates the relay is completing the ground circuit at the steering wheel horn buttons. The ground path is carried thru the steering shaft to the rag joint, a jumper is used to jump the rag joint to the steering box, then frame, then inner skirt, then radiator support and everywhere else. If you have no relay sound "clicking" when you push your horn button, try a jumper from battery ground to the black wire on the relay. If your relay clicks put your test light in the green wire next to the black one on the relay, it should light while you ground the black wire. You may also want to use a jumper from batt. neg. to relay base in case yor inner skirt isn`t grounded properly. With all the new paint during a build the ground issues arise. The steering box needs to have a ground path to the frame, the fenders, radiator support, bumpers, everything needs to be grounded and new paint insulates these mechanical ground points.
Try a few things, it`ll happen. Did your horn(s) ever work since you rebuilt your car?
I could get in to the multi-tester method of tracing this out, but I believe this method, HANDS ON, gives a better understanding of the workings. And besides, I`m betting there`s those that don`t own a tester, and some who aren`t familiar enough with them to make an honest assessment.
Let me know where this gets you, and myself and others will get you thru. And don`t anybody EVER be afraid to call me out on something. I`m just offering what i can, it may not be right 100%, but some of it has to be close.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 19:40:58 GMT -5
One thing a car shouldn't have,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a horn!
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Post by mongoose on Jul 31, 2012 20:17:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. I'll use what you've outlined to start troubleshooting. I'm placing my bet on 1) a jacked up contact plate or more likely 2) a ground issue. This tech section is FILLED with issues related to ground, either because we paint and coat EVERYTHING, or we miss or discount the need for a ground in any particular place. For example, yes... lots of paint, including on the steering shaft. And when postcar mentioned a ground jumper wire from the steering shaft at the rag joint to the steering box side fo the rag joint... I said "jumper wire?" So there's a place to look for lack of ground. Also, both the core support and the brackets for the horns are very nicely painted. So there's another potential ground issue. I kind of like Shane's idea... it is a convertible and all... so hearing it shouldn't be a problem. And how many other people in Indiana will have a horn like that? In Ohio it's probably commonplace. ;D So on the horn relay, it's always hot because it's also the terminal for the positive battery cable, and a host of other positive leads? In all the silence my horns currently make, I haven't heard any clicking, but maybe it's a click that I have to be under the hood to hear. Time to recruit one of the kids or my wife for button pressing duty (or a neighbor buddy with a beer in his hand). The car's at the trim shop having the top installed... yes... I gave up after 3 Sundays of effort. I'm disappointed, as I wanted to install it myself, as I did the first time in 1985. But I just couldn't get the adjustments I made to do what was needed to get a proper fit, and I was afraid I would eventually make a mistake that would make the top unusable. The car should be home tomorrow, but I'll be out for several days following, so I won't likely get to working on the horns until weekend after next. So don't think I've accepted all your advice and then went dark on you. Again, appreciate your help. And as I make progress, or lack thereof, I'll update you all and probably ask "what next?".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 20:43:37 GMT -5
"The car should be home tomorrow, but I'll be out for several days following, so I won't likely get to working on the horns until weekend after next. So don't think I've accepted all your advice and then went dark on you."
That would be appreciated. It`s always nice to know what happens with advise, good or bad. Sometimes I wonder if I explain badly? Or just hard to understand? But there`s times like the fuel drain back, the trans issue, the tail light issue, never a word. Not looking for anything but an idea what worked. Not like there`s a bill waiting for them. But typing with one finger is time consuming, laying my brain out on the kitchen counter and picking thru it is a pain in the ass. Guess it`s time to make a list. Givers, and takers. That`s enough, my pills are wearing off ! Yup, back on those bastard pills ! Jekyll & Hyde Time
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Post by fredcdobbs on Aug 1, 2012 19:29:44 GMT -5
My 64 horns never worked, so I go to the service manual and oh jeez the horns have adjusting screws!!!! I pulled the horns and cleaned off several paint jobs off of the horns and yep there are some screws on the backside, pulled em out wire brushed em and started adjusting them till hornage has occurred, they work great now. The service manual states that the adjustment is sensitive and that is very true counterclockwise increases the current and clockwise will decrease the current.
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Post by mongoose on Aug 2, 2012 5:55:37 GMT -5
Just when you thought horns were simple...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 13:22:09 GMT -5
My 64 horns never worked, so I go to the service manual and oh jeez the horns have adjusting screws!!!! I pulled the horns and cleaned off several paint jobs off of the horns and yep there are some screws on the backside, pulled em out wire brushed em and started adjusting them till hornage has occurred, they work great now. The service manual states that the adjustment is sensitive and that is very true counterclockwise increases the current and clockwise will decrease the current. I don`t know why, since I don`t recall ever having a horn apart. I just always assumed the adjusting screw could only be for one of two things. Either limit the travel of the metal diaphragm, or change the frequency of the pull coil. Now I`m going to have to find a dead one and perform surgery !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 13:29:54 GMT -5
Why does it even matter?
But think about it, by changing the diaphragm travel, (the diaphragm being metal, and is the neutral portion of the switch for the coil) you are changing the frequency of the magnetic coil, which in turn changes the tone/pitch.
So, the screw by changing travel, changes frequency.
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Post by mongoose on Aug 2, 2012 14:06:34 GMT -5
Without putting my head under the hood yet... but just thinking out loud....
The horn relay has two terminals... so I assume that one is for ground, actuated by pressing the horn button (assuming it's properly grounded), and the other horn relay terminal would carry the current to the horns through the harness. If that's correct, I could test from the horn relay forward by grounding the correct terminal, and the horns should blow. If not, I fix that first, then proceed to find the issue with ground? Seem like a reasonable plan?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 14:24:05 GMT -5
Like I said in REPLY #3 above.
If you have no relay sound "clicking" when you push your horn button, try a jumper from battery ground to the black wire on the relay. If your relay clicks put your test light in the green wire next to the black one on the relay, it should light while you ground the black wire. You may also want to use a jumper from batt. neg. to relay base in case yor inner skirt isn`t grounded properly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 15:31:01 GMT -5
1965 cutlass horn. This is how they work ! No B.S. This is a picture showing the diaphragm still in the pull coil portion of the housing, the part the power lead attaches to, and the adjustment is located. ( Meaning the coiled "horn" housing portion removed) You know, the curly-Q part where the noise comes out has been removed. This pic is of the diaphragm removed, you can see the hole in the center of the housing where the shaft in the center of the now BACK side of the diaphragm sits. On this shaft notice a shoulder, when the coil is energized, the shaft is pulled in to the coil until the shoulder on the shaft makes contact with the "POINTS" which are located just below the coil in the rectangular housing pictured. When contact is made current is cut to the pull coil, and the diaphragm springs back towards the curly-Q portion of the housing, forcing the air that was drawn "IN" during coil pull, to be pushed "OUT". The air being forced out puts the honk in your horn. This shows the location of the adjustment screw, directly behind the point plate. What the adjuster does, is change the travel of the diaphragm by changing the location of the points in relation to the shoulder on the shaft. Changing diaphragm travel changes cycle, cycle and travel combined changes note/tone. Best I can explain it. Bottom line, horns get full voltage, always.
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Post by fredcdobbs on Aug 2, 2012 19:17:21 GMT -5
I never dug that deep, voltage is 11.5 and amperage is the variable factor, here are the pages out of the 64 manual. #9000514 High Note #9000513 Low Note 64-66 all
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 20:15:14 GMT -5
I`m not saying you didn`t read that somewhere, REALLY ! I`m only illustrating the fact that what`s in print is very misleading. For that screw to do what the book describes would require a rheostat or potentiometer in conjunction with a point set up. All that`s in this horn that I removed from a 65 cutlass is a point set with a movable base/
P.M. me your address I`ll send this to you to look at. You`ll see it`s super simple design.
I`m not trying to piss on anybody's shoes here, just sayin
What the book is actually saying, is to reach the correct note, the coil must cycle a certain amount of times PER SECOND, I don`t know the exact numbers, but it`s several hundred times per second. A higher cycle number will mean an increased amperage draw, a lower cycle number will give a lower amperage draw. Only because the coil is doing more for a longer period, or less for a shorter time. It`s pretty basic stuff, no magic voltage box inside the horn. It just means that with a battery at rest ( 11.5 to 12v) it will take 4.5 to 5.5 amps to attain the correct tone. And the tone is achieved thru cycles, cycles are determined by the distance the diaphragm travels, diaphragm travel is adjusted by points position !
Hope this all makes sense to everyone, it does to me
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Post by fredcdobbs on Aug 2, 2012 22:12:01 GMT -5
Postcar, I'm with you brother, my response was that my horns did not work, I did the mojo screw thing and they worked hoooooray beer. I could not give a rats ass what tone the horns have, they work now and all is cool, I did not put any kind of meter on these I tested them with a battery charger on my bench and turned the screw till they went honk.I just need to get all the chit working so I can pass the Arizona salvage title level III inspection. Hmmm....... horn tone test to determine best of class.
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Post by mongoose on Aug 3, 2012 4:01:09 GMT -5
Like I said in REPLY #3 above. If you have no relay sound "clicking" when you push your horn button, try a jumper from battery ground to the black wire on the relay. If your relay clicks put your test light in the green wire next to the black one on the relay, it should light while you ground the black wire. You may also want to use a jumper from batt. neg. to relay base in case yor inner skirt isn`t grounded properly. Ok sweet! I read through that as "a" step, not necessarily the "first" step. And you too guys don't go to bickerin'... I just want my f#@kin' horns to work, and you guys are providing great information to help me get that done (when I get back from a long weekend of drinkin' in the Smokey Mountains of Gatlinburg).
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Post by real57vetteguy on Aug 3, 2012 6:19:10 GMT -5
Like I said in REPLY #3 above. If you have no relay sound "clicking" when you push your horn button, try a jumper from battery ground to the black wire on the relay. If your relay clicks put your test light in the green wire next to the black one on the relay, it should light while you ground the black wire. You may also want to use a jumper from batt. neg. to relay base in case yor inner skirt isn`t grounded properly. Ok sweet! I read through that as "a" step, not necessarily the "first" step. And you too guys don't go to bickerin'... I just want my f#@kin' horns to work, and you guys are providing great information to help me get that done (when I get back from a long weekend of drinkin' in the Smokey Mountains of Gatlinburg). When are you goin to Gatlinburg? I am a little over an hour away from GBURG, Have you seen run thru the hills?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2012 7:08:04 GMT -5
Like I said in REPLY #3 above. If you have no relay sound "clicking" when you push your horn button, try a jumper from battery ground to the black wire on the relay. If your relay clicks put your test light in the green wire next to the black one on the relay, it should light while you ground the black wire. You may also want to use a jumper from batt. neg. to relay base in case yor inner skirt isn`t grounded properly. Ok sweet! I read through that as "a" step, not necessarily the "first" step. And you too guys don't go to bickerin'... I just want my f#@kin' horns to work, and you guys are providing great information to help me get that done (when I get back from a long weekend of drinkin' in the Smokey Mountains of Gatlinburg). When you talk electrical to different people, seems you`ll always get different approaches on how they "attack" the situation. My thoughts are seldom put down in any specific order, there just thoughts, random, suggestions, things I`ve run in to in the past. I`ve heard of the brain described as a file cabinet, well, all the files in this cabinet fell out of the drawer, and are strewn all over the floor! And there`s no bickerin, least I don`t mean it to be, just a normal conversation in my world. Actually, if this thread was a conversation I was having with my circle of friends, well lets just say, it would be much more "active"
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